----------------------------------------------------------------- THE BETTER WRITING SKILLS NEWSLETTER, July 2009 By Tim North of Scribe Consulting www.scribe.com.au ----------------------------------------------------------------- Welcome to the July 2009 Better Writing Skills newsletter. IN THIS ISSUE 1. "Mine and Joe's car"? 2. "Having said that" and "Having said this" 3. When do we capitalise "state" and "federal"? 4. Just for fun Your comments and questions are always welcome. Just send e-mail to: info@scribe.com.au Cheers, Tim North (Perth, Western Australia) ----------------------------------------------------------------- 1. "Mine and Joe's car"? ----------------------------------------------------------------- My first correspondent this month, Ben, wrote in with a question about apostrophes: When referring to the possessive of two people (one being the speaker him or herself) -- for example a car belonging to me and Joe -- would I say "mine and Joe's car" or "Joe's and my car" or "me and Joe's car" or what!? None of them sound right. A similar example: Joe's and Mick's car (or is it "Joe and Mick's car?) None of the ways I can think of seem to be the right one -- so which is right? Yes, Ben, this is certainly a confusing area. Fortunately, though, there are some simple guidelines that we can follow. Let's start with your second example. If Joe and Mick share the car then it's common to use a single apostrophe after the second name: Joe and Mick's car If they each have separate cars, though, they each get an apostrophe: Joe's and Mick's cars Your earlier example ("mine and Joe's car") doesn't fit these guidelines, though, as pronouns (words like "I", "mine" and "me") don't take apostrophes. One guideline that will help us a little, though, is that it has traditionally been considered polite to put your own name second in such phrases. For example, rather than "mine and Joe's", we should prefer "Joe's and mine". Given that the pronoun can't take an apostrophe, we could attach it to the other name: Joe's and my car This still sounds a little awkward, so you may prefer to use a different phrasing. For example: Our car Hope this helps. -- (c) 2009 Tim North: http://www.scribe.com.au ----------------------------------------------------------------- 2. "Having said that" and "Having said this" ----------------------------------------------------------------- My next correspondent, Rick, wrote in to point out an interesting variation in my writing style: I just finished your May 2009 newsletter and noticed that you wrote "Having said that ..." in one place and "Having said this ..." in another. You know, that's what I love about writing this newsletter -- I would never have noticed this if someone hadn't pointed it out to me. Rick continued: I think the phrases are misleading. It doesn't matter that the speaker said it; it matters that what was said is fact. For example, consider this. It's snowing heavily. Having said that, I'm still going to drive to the store. The fact that it was said is irrelevant. It's the existence of the fact. Your examples can be seen the same way. It's more accurate, I think, to use "Even so," "However," "Despite that" or some such. I understand the point you're making, Rick. "Even so" would make more sense. The phrases don't bother me, though. There are many stock phrases and cliches in English that don't make a lot of sense when treated literally -- "time on my hands" springs to mind. (Oh there's another one: "springs to mind".) Rick continued: The exception would be something like this: I told him his wife was ugly. Having said that, he punched my face. In this case, the fact of the wife being ugly was not what precipitated the punch; it WAS the saying of it. That's a good example, and it certainly makes your point clear. I wonder, though, just how much English is subject to such strict tests of literality? Having said this, I hope you won't punch MY face! Not at all. Many thanks for your thought-provoking feedback, Rick. -- (c) 2009 Tim North: http://www.scribe.com.au ----------------------------------------------------------------- Do you know someone who'd like this newsletter? ----------------------------------------------------------------- Do you have a friend or colleague who'd find the Better Writing Skills newsletter interesting? If so, please feel free to send a copy of this issue to them. Alternatively, please tell them they can browse back issues here: http://www.scribe.com.au/newsletter.html Thanks for helping to make this newsletter so successful! ----------------------------------------------------------------- 3. When do we capitalise "state" and "federal"? ----------------------------------------------------------------- My next correspondent, Dave, writes: Should the words "federal" and "state" be capitalized when referring to the respective government body? To answer this, let me quote from "Editing and Proofreading", one of my e-books: The word "government" should be capitalised when referring to a specific government. Lower case is used when referring to governments generically. For example: The US Government should consider ... It is a function of government to provide health care. Similarly, the word "state" should be capitalised when referring to a specific state. Lower case is used when referring to states generically. For example: The WA State Government has been praised for its response. This is a matter of states' rights. "Federal" behaves in a similar manner. Hope this helps. By the way, you can find a complete table of contents and a sample chapter from this e-book here: http://www.scribe.com.au/ebooks.html -- (c) 2009 Tim North: http://www.scribe.com.au ---------------------------------------------------------------- 4. Just for fun ---------------------------------------------------------------- This month have a look at Wordnik "an ongoing project devoted to discovering all the words and everything about them": http://www.wordnik.com/ Enjoy. ----------------------------------------------------------------- REPRODUCING THIS MATERIAL You're welcome to reproduce the articles from this newsletter that are copyrighted by Tim North, but please don't modify or sell them. Also, please provide a clickable link back to: http://www.scribe.com.au FUTURE MAILINGS You can prevent (or receive) future mailings by visiting this page: http://www.scribe.com.au/newsletter.html This is a GENUINE service, and you will not receive any unsolicited e-mail as a result. You have my word on it. -----------------------------------------------------------------